Series Three Finale | Q and A

Final closing thoughts on series and Q and A:

Hello, and welcome to my one year anniversary episode! I cannot believe I’ve been doing this for a year, and before I even start I want to thank every listener and especially my Patrons, for their support. I am so grateful I can do this with my free time and that so many of you are listening. I’m also so grateful to everyone who sent in questions, those are coming after the recap. This will be much more laid back than normal episodes. Patrons may be used to this from my special episodes which do have a more casual tone. 

Full disclosure, my first episode released on the 16th of May 2022, so this is coming out a few days after the. I though, prefer celebrating after the actual event instead of before! I’m sure I’m just a bit eccentric. Since this third series has been so big I figured it needed a proper conclusion. I’m going to, mostly randomly, go through my thoughts on the events I’ve covered over the last few months. I started the third series on the 22nd of August last year, in a probably overly ambitious attempt to discuss the mess that Edward III left for history. I think I’ve done an okay job covering the people who didn’t rule and explaining some of the political events around them. I also started and then paused, trying to do fortnightly episodes about smaller subjects. I will be getting back to this, but I got a little overwhelmed with the main narrative and having two huge subject towards the end of the series was a lot (Richard III Duke of York and Margaret Beaufort, honestly, I could have shared so much more about both of them). 

So, I have this funny little tick I have when reading history. No matter how many times a read a fact there are some that I wish would just not happen. From this last series the two big ones are Philip the Tall usurping his niece Joan II of Navarre and Henry VI’s recovery in 1454. With the first, it would have removed Edward III’s claim to the French throne. And for all we know, Charles II of Navarre may have been a great king of France, instead just a chaotic king of a minor kingdom (yes, I’m giggling at myself right now). If you’re not a patron you’re missing out on knowing more about Charles II of Navarre, join us for his episode. The second though I need to be more nuanced on, I do wish Henry VI had never had to deal with mental health issues, because it sounds like that would have been difficult to go through. I guess a better way of saying it is I wish Henry VI had listened to the wise counsel of his cousin, Richard of York, and reformed his government, while trying to find the best way to achieve long-term peace with France. I wish Henry VI’s son, Edward, had been raised by chivalric, wise men and women instead of learning on the battle field and having his cruel streak nourished instead of controlled. 

All the claims of infidelity are just a lot if you think about it too much. Richard Conisburgh not being Edmunds son, but instead Joan of Kent’s grandson, weird. One I didn’t mention in the main series, the accusations that Edmund Tudor, Henry VII’s father, was actually Edmund Beaufort’s son. It would make Edmund Tudor’s marriage to Margaret Beaufort more horrible than it already was (they would have been first cousins, you know, as well as her being rather young). Plus, if both these things were true then Henry VII and Elizabeth of York were way more closely related than was okay with the Catholic church. 

I need to go archaic on all of you. In the middle ages the king and any sons he produces have two jobs. To be leaders, ready to direct armies and hold things together in peace, and to reproduce. Yes, this is horrific in the modern world and no one today should be expected to have children to carry on a line, but this wasn’t the case in the 15th century. Henry VIII wasn’t wrong for trying to secure his succession, just for the way he went about it. Of Henry IV’s sons only one succeeded in this. The others were loyal in a way every king should wish for, honestly, Henry V could have had a very bad time, but his brothers fell into line. Even when they disagreed they held to his side, but they let their nephew down by not providing him with supportive heirs. It allowed their distant cousin to take advantage of the disunity in Henry VI’s court, and led to his and his son’s deaths. Being a royal in the 14th, and 15th century couldn’t be just about chivalry and jousts, it had to be about the future. Here’s the thing, all three of Henry V’s brothers had children, illegitimate children, and at least one wife from each brother could have children. I will give the Duke of Bedford a little wiggle room, he was very unwell when he married his second wife and their chances of conceiving would have been low. But the Duke of Clarence had a wife who had six living children at the time of their marriage and was only 26 or 27 at the time of their marriage. They were married for almost ten years. The final brother, Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, seemed to just want to upset everyone with his marriage choices. His first wife, while noble, was married to another man, yes, I’m serious, and his second wife was his mistress who was later accused of witchcraft. I will say she was likely the mother of his illegitimate children, so he might have been trying to do what John of Gaunt had done, but it didn’t work out. This is the failing of the House of Lancaster, not securing the future.

I have a fun thought experiment I want to do, but first let’s talk about the House of York. Their failing was that while appearing united behind their figure head, Edward IV, they were actually deeply divided. George of Clarence was loyal until he thought he could become king himself, something no brother had done since John Lackland had messed with things while Richard the Lionheart was on crusades. And then once Edward IV was gone his brother Richard, well, misplaced his heir, Edward V. This lack of loyalty doomed the Yorkist cause more than any battle ever could. So, my fun thought experiment is, sons of Henry IV versus sons of Richard Duke of York. They’re separated by a generation, but there are four of them in each family (assuming Edmund of Rutland doesn’t die outside of Sandal, and it’s my thought experiment, so he’s alive). So, a political and military battle. The Lancastrians get their Beaufort cousins and the Yorkists get their Neville cousins. Who wins politically and militarily? Full disclosure I’m not actually on team Lancaster or team York, I’m on team sort it out so we can keep harvesting our wheat in peace. But for this thought experiment I’m fully on team Lancaster. Brotherly loyalty, good military backing, no heirs getting misplaced. Thomas of Clarence was perfect, marrying his uncle’s widow was an odd call. But overall he supported Henry once he was king. 

One little thing I did want to mention, I’d like to make a small note of one of the often forgotten victims of the Wars of the Roses, Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers. I know, it sounds like an odd choice to mention, but hear me out. Earl Rivers was a rather learned man for someone of his supposedly humble birth. Remember, his mother was of noble birth and had been well educated. It’s obvious she passed this on to her children and it can be seen clearly in Anthony. While a brilliant general and military mind he was also an early Renaissance man, who was a patron of William Caxton, a printer. One both the first works in English printed in England were Anthony’s translations from French. I think he saw the value in the technology and had he lived longer he might have been at the forefront of English thought. He was only about 43 when he died. His work could have influence court and thinking for many years still. Just a little shout out for one of the little people. I feel I should mention his sister as well. While Elizabeth Woodville wasn’t the ideal queen consort in the eyes of the nobility she was actually rather close to an ideal queen consort in fact. She was pious, devout, had a lot of children, and supported her husband. Her siblings may have taken all the eligible men and women in court and stopped a few noble families from marrying off their daughters, but they weren’t horrible monsters. They were normal people looking to gain influence and wealth, using the means the nobility had used for generations to expand their own wealth and influence. They just beat the nobility at their own game for a while. Yes, I know that one brother was married off to a much older widow, which could be shocking. 

Before I run away with too much, I need to remember that this series has also been about the Hundred Years’ War. So, who do I think the rightful king of France was? Obviously, Joan II of Navarre and her son Charles II of Navarre, I said rightful, not good. Really though, at the end of the day the rules at the time clearly showed that council, or the barons, or whoever could convince the largest group of men with arms was the rightful king, and Philip VI did that. Salic Law though will lead to some interesting stories in France. I’m really looking forward to covering three almost-kings whose sons would rule. It makes for an odd case, a man whose father and grandfather weren’t kings, but whose son is a king, all because a rather distant, cousin didn’t have a son. All because back in 1316 a younger brother of the late king usurped his niece. As for ruling France to this day, I’m not touching that subject, viva la Republic. 

Okay, and now to the final thought, who killed the Princes in the Tower? I know, because we can’t finish a War of the Roses program without it coming up. I will not say I’m 100% sure how they died, but I am very confident that as of the time of this recording they are dead. My theory is a bit different than most, not because I want to be difficult, but because Richard III character confuses me a lot. Throughout most of his life he was a loyal brother to Edward IV, a talented commander who could lead men, and a seemingly thoughtful husband. He was close to his cousin Warwick, who had basically raised him, but didn’t turn on his oldest brother when Warwick and George of Clarence did. But, usurping a throne from a child out of fear of that child’s mother’s family is pretty low. Plus, summarily executing one of your closest followers is a really bad look. I think Edward V died of natural causes, I have found notes that he was sickly. I think after that Richard may have accidentally said something along the lines of ‘What miserable drones and traitors have I nurtured and promoted in my household who let their lord be treated with such shameful contempt by an illegitimate boy.’ Yes, that is a modification of the words of Henry II in relation to Thomas Becket. I obviously don’t think Richard used the same words as his ancestor, but it’s highly possible he, in a moment of rage, suggested his life would be easier if the boy wasn’t alive. I then think one of his retainers did the deed and Richard, while, hopefully, upset, just accepted it and moved on, at least until August of 1485. Regardless of who ordered anything done to the princes, Richard was their guardian as both the Protector of Edward V and the person holding them in a legal sense. If they died during that time of anything other than natural causes he share some of the blame. Since 1066 only one usurped king of England to this point had ever enjoyed a long life after his overthrow (any guesses who? I am accepting responses) it isn’t surprising that the princes wouldn’t live long after Edward V’s usurpation. What interests me the most about this isn’t that Richard could do this, but his likely reason, the Woodville clan. It amazes me that this small group of ‘grasping’ minor gentry could rise so high as to threaten the Lord Protector and his interests. To me it shows that Richard was afraid more than anything, and fear causes people to make bad decisions. Do I think the Woodvilles would have done anything to injure him as a person? I don’t know, in general they don’t seem to be horrible vindictive. They weren’t a perfect family, but they did seem to be okay people, dodgy marriages aside. 

I hope you’ve all enjoyed this not-so-mini-series. I don’t think I’ll be doing one this big again, but who knows, I think Gengis Khan had a few sons who would never rule, so we’ll see. So, what do I have in store for my next mini-series. Well, 안녕하세요, 우리는 한국에 갈 것입니다 (oori nun, hangook-e gal, geoshi-ipnida), for those who didn’t understand, hello, we’re going to Korea, and I’ll be doing a one-off subject, who will probably take two to three episodes. What I’m most looking forward to is not having to look up pronunciation before I start recording, unlike these last three series I have actually visited many of the places I’ll be talking about and used names similar to those of the people covered. I really want feedback on this, I do plan on doing future series about Asian Passed, so hearing what you, my listeners think is super important to me. After I finish this upcoming properly mini-series I’ll be looking at three men French men who will allow us to explore Salic Law in a bit more detail. Patrons you’ll be getting two special episodes that I’m really looking forward to. Patrons, thank you as always. Your willingness to pay me to do this is so kind and I really appreciate each of you. I also love getting your messages, so please, keep those coming. 

Total word count for this series (not including this episode):

Series Three: 31,911

Margaret Beaufort: 22,137

Richard DOY: 22,120

TBP: 10,296

John of Gaunt: 14,601

Elizabeth of York: 12,930

Total: 113,995

This doesn’t include special episodes nor my joint episode with Cork Out History. 

Now, onto the questions!

First up, patron Mark asked if I’ll be covering the royalty of Ireland? Yes, I will, I’m really looking forward to this subject because it covers a different for of inheritance than we’ve seen thus far. And I guess this is the right point to share my long-term goals with this podcast. I like forming a story with these subjects, I don’t think I’ll try something as big as this series for a least another year or two. I do like the four to six episode mini-series though, so I’ll keep doing those. I’ll look for stories that go together, with occasional one-off episodes. My goal is to keep making shows until I run out of subjects. And I have a broad definition of who counts, hence my entire second series and a lot of my third. I would even consider doing episodes about Al Gore, or Aaron Burr (though I am averse to doing episodes on living individuals). I also plan on doing all of the anti-popes. I had originally considered doing them over one year, but I’ve since decided to break them up into groups. 

Next, TK from For the Love of History, asked where I came up with the name ‘Passed’. Quickly before answering, in addition to her podcast, TK makes some of the best history reels on Instagram, please look her page up. Originally I wanted to call the show ‘The Usurped’ but then I thought of two of the subjects I was most looking forward to working on the Black Prince and Henry Fredrick, neither of whom were usurped. They both died before their respective fathers. There are also countless women, say Lady Margaret Beaufort who were never meant to rule, but who had a claim. Henry VII didn’t usurp his mother, his claim passed through her. And that’s when it hit me, Passed, these people died before their parents, were passed over by whatever random rules were made up by their opponents, or passed their claim through to their children. Passed covered the most subjects. There has been only one problem with it thus far, it is a homophone with Past, which also sounds like the name of a history podcast, so I make sure to spell it out for people. The Usurped is still a pretty cool name! 

An instagram follower sent me a few fire emojis, I think they were asking about Charles II of Navarre. I did a special episode on him for patrons. If you’d like to hear more fire jokes than anyone should make his episode is for you. Yeah, I might be reading in too much to those emojis, but I did have a lot of fun sharing his self-inflicted chaotic life.

Patron Ashley asked two questions. The first, If Henry V had outlived Charles VI, do you think he would have become King of France, not just in tittle, but as actual ruler? I do think he would have managed it for a time. I think he had a good team on his side, but I think things would have started to fall apart when his brother, John Duke of Bedford died in 1435. Without Bedford’s support it would have been difficult to keep France. Even though by that point Richard, 3rd Duke of York would have been properly old enough to fight, it would have been a struggle. Henry would have been 49 by this point, which was pushing old age for a man who was fighting. I think that’s when things would have really started to fall apart. Much like Edward III being succeeded by Richard II, I don’t think Henry VI would have been much different to the person we’ve discussed. Unless Henry VI had a younger brother who was a proper warrior prince, then once Henry V was gone it would have all fallen apart. And I think this is a large part of why things fell apart. Because Henry V never had any further children with Catherine of Valois his son didn’t have the support he would have needed long-term. Henry both dying early and not having more children prevent the personal union of England and France from working. Before I leave this question I will say that Henry V would have faced a challenge, had he lived, from a certain French peasant girl. For all we know Joan of Arc may not have been captured in this time line and could have continued to hound English troops. 

Ashley’s second question was: The Wars of the Roses feature some of the most fascinating women in English history (Margaret of Anjou, Margaret Beaufort, Elizabeth Woodville, etc.). However, there are so many women whose stories aren’t well documented or are completely untold. Who from this time do you most wish we had a magic, all-knowing biography? For my it’s a toss up between Elizabeth Woodville and her mother, Jacquetta of Luxembourg. What we know about the causes and events around each of their second marriages is really minimal. We don’t even know when Elizabeth and Edward IV met for the first time. And in Jacquetta’s case, what caused her to marry a squire? I also want to know more about what this supposed witchcraft was, what we normally hear about it is what men think witchcraft was, we hear next to nothing about what women were actually doing that would lead to these charges. Ashely picked Anne Neville in case you’re curious, and I think she would have been a good choice as well. For the daughter of one of the most powerful men, the Princess of Wales and the wife of a king we know very little about her. 

My husband Phillip did have a question which patrons already know that answer to, but I thought I should share with you all. He wanted to know why no one killed Charles II of Navarre. Now, even if you’re not a patron you will remember Charles II, Joan II of Navarre’s oldest son and heir. He featured in the Black Prince, and John of Gaunt’s episodes. He is described as an agent of chaos, and I have to agree with that. He was held in French prison and there were countless times he could have easily been done away with. So, why didn’t anyone? Well, the simple reason, if you kill a king, as a king, it both leaves you open for someone to do the same to you and it violates the religious and chivalric expectations of the day. This is why Robert Curthose didn’t overthrow Henry I, religious and chivalric expectations.

Speaking of Phillip, one time period I’m really looking forward to is discussing the fall of the throne of Europe around the First World War. This is actually one of Phillip’s favourite subjects, so when I get there he will be helping me a lot more. Since I’ve decided to avoid doing episodes on living people I won’t be doing any of the living pretenders, but I’ll probably do the dispossessed heirs of each monarchy. 

I’ve been asked by multiple listeners and Instagram followers if I’ll be covering Henry Fitzroy. This is actually one of my favourite questions. In relation to the English throne I really want to cover this subject, along with the Grey sisters, and Mary Queen of Scots, but I’m a bit nervous about it. The Tudors in general bring out a lot of emotion and can lead to more responses than I think I’m ready for. I think I will cover them, but it’ll be in a few years. I hope you’ll all wait for it. This is also a bit like the early Plantagenets, Henry the Young King, Geoffrey, and Arthur of Brittany, I really want to cover them, but there’s just so much family animosity. Covering the Wars of the Roses was enough of that for the moment. I think I’ll give myself a bit of time away from England for the moment. 

Laura, on Instagram asked ‘Who are you looking forward to doing episodes about during the Georgian and Stuart period?’ The Stuarts, obviously Henry Fredrick, whom I’ve already mentioned. I’m actually really interested in looking into the almosts around the change from Stuart to Hanoverian dynasties. I want to look through the other lines that had a claim and explain what they would have brought and what happened to each senior line in the long-run. We all know that they were passed over because their religion didn’t fit what was needed, but I want to look into the other reasons they might have succeeded or failed. I’m interested in Bonny Prince Charles. And I cannot skip out on doing an episode about Princess Charlotte of Wales. 

A great question from patron David, Which of your subjects do you think really benefitted from being passed over, and lives a far better life because of it? So, obviously anyone who died prematurely is not on this list. Which leaves most of the second mini-series, so Joan II of Navarre, Joan II of Burgundy, Blanche of France, and Isabella of France, with the addition of Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda’s older half brother, and possibly John of Gaunt and Edmund of Langley, and then of course Lady Margaret Beaufort and Elizabeth of York. I think Robert of Gloucester would be my first choice followed by Joan II of Navarre. I think Robert was a soldier and fighting for his sister’s cause really gave a life that could have just been parties and nothing until death meaning. I think not trying to be king made him a better man and a man more ready to stand up for his family. For Joan I think it’s obvious. She didn’t have to deal with French court politics, she married a husband who seemed to treat her well, and she eventually ruled her own small kingdom. She also didn’t have the string of marriages and living through the Wars of the Roses like Lady Margaret Beaufort, nor was she actually declared a bastard like Elizabeth of York. Her failings are her sons. I didn’t discussed Charles II of Navarre’s brother, Philip, that extensively in Charles’ special episode, but just know he was there for his brother’s schemes. 

The flip side of that question I guess would be who had it the worst? I think that’s an easy choice to make, my first subject, Robert Curthose. Being stuck as your brother’s prisoner for almost 30 years, learning of your son’s death while you were in captivity and then outliving him by almost six years. It’s just a sad story. 

Finally, a listener who shall remain nameless asked which podcasts I listen to. This is a bit of a list, but do remember that I have limited time to listen. One of the problems with having a podcast that requires extensive reading is that I can’t listen to podcast while working. So, I usually listen while driving, on my morning walk, and after I’ve dropped my kids off. On our long drives to Sydney Phillip and I have listened to everything Mike Duncan has made, we’re looking forward to his new show. We’ve been listening to Robin Persons History of Byzantium Podcast. On my morning walk I usually listen to the History of England Podcast, which is by David Crowder. In addition to being a great show, David is really supportive of newer podcasters and really kind when you reach out to him. Rex Factor is what gets played in the car the most, my children actually know the theme song. I also listen to  Science…Sort Of, a science podcast, it’s a great if you’re interested in science education. The smaller, newer podcasts that I support are Cork Out History, Lafayette We Are Here, Grand Dukes of the West, A History of Valois Burgundy, and Dutch Art and Design Today, I’ve been so lucky to get to know the hosts of all four podcasts since starting this one and they are great people to know. I have a lot of friends, at least now, in the podcasting community, so I’ll recommend of few oof their shows even though I don’t listen as regularly (due mainly to time, or a lack of). If you like a chatty podcast Battle Royal, covering the kings of France is great, as is Bad at Talking with Victoria, and the Queens podcast, which really doesn’t need my help, but they’ve been wonderfully welcoming to me as a new podcaster. Anthology of Heroes is a great podcast that isn’t dissimilar to this show, it covers a lot of people you may not have heard of yet. Oh, and I already mentioned her, but TK’s For the Love of History is something I’m happy to recommend. Please do let me know if any of these work out for you, I’d love to hear feedback on that.

I have one final requests since we’re at the end of this episode. This last week has been my 40th birthday! I know, how did that happen? As a gift for me is there any chance I could request a review on iTunes or your favourite podcasting app. I know plenty of you have already done this, but it really does help this show grow in listeners which makes it easier for me to keep doing this. As always please feel free to contact me on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter or via email. I love getting feedback and hearing from my listeners. Thank you all again so much for one year of this really fun show!